I no longer participate in Covid Theater. I am fully vaccinated, with a booster. I however will not wear a mask unless I am legally mandated to do so (and then, only if its a do it or be kicked out way). Basically, I wear a mask on airplanes and half-assedly in airports, only because my job requires me to fly.
I will not put on a mask in any other place except for a medical establishment.
The simple fact is, the only reason we wear masks is to protect the very idiots that are unwilling to get vaccinated and I don't give a fuck about them.
Before someone mentions kids.... the risk is miniscule. Yesterday I decided to look up excess deaths my age, and the mortality rate for children is 15-20% lower during Covid that it was before Covid.
The ridiculous amounts of Covid theater we go through are more likely to cause a civil war or permanent split in our country than any other issue.
I've come to the conclusion that blue-state Covid worrying progressives are more irrational than anti-vaxers.
All the anti-vaxers I know at least acknowledge there is some risk, but at the end of the day, they were willing to take it, and that living a normal life is more important. I might not agree with their risk tolerance and evaluation, but I understand it.
Its the young progressive vaccinated people who wear masks everywhere, and avoid leading a normal life that I don't understand. Sacrificing enjoying life, for risk that is equivalent to pre-covid times is ridiculous.
Yesterday in Twitter, I saw someone post a comment from someone who lives in Pasadena who were terrified because they had to bring their two year old kids to Idaho next week. TERRIFIED.
Idaho has had zero children die from Covid. Child mortality is down 15-20%. There child is safer coming to Idaho during the pandemic that they were just living in Pasadena pre-pandemic.
Ok... since I travel. Here is my list of useless pandemic theater
1. the wipes they give you on airplanes even though they say they do super cleaning on planes
2. hotels that won't let you serve your own breakfast, but instead make you stand in line so some person can hand you your plate
3. mask requirements in drive-throughs
4. hotel key disinfectant boxes
5. insisting on contactless payment
The whole world is crazy and I refuse to play it's game.
>> "All the anti-vaxers I know at least acknowledge there is some risk."
Interesting. All the anti-vaxers I have seen here in central NC are covid deniers. All the protesters at our school board meetings have been anti-vax, anti-mask, covid-denying types. I have yet to hear a "I know there is some COVID risk but not going back to normal life is more harmful" from any of those folks. A friend is on the school board and she has not heard that either. Obviously "people who protest at school boards" has some selection bias in it, but I wonder if the garden variety anti-vaxer is different in different parts of the country.
I thought about this a little more. The protestors are a tiny percentage of anti-vaxers... they are the crazy ones.
Most anti-vaxers are the type who are scare of needles, fall prey to bad information on facebook, realize Covid is dangerous, but that the risk to them personally is reasonable, but overestimate the risk of Vaccines... or alternatively just don't know the risk of vaccines, so opt to accept slightly higher risk of covid vs unknown risk (to them) of the vaccine.
As someone who has been in contact with literally thousands of people all over the country, encouraging them to get vaccines, I call bs. People who don’t want the shot overwhelming say they believe the vaccine is more dangerous than the disease, that COVID is a hoax, or claim that several of their friends have died after getting the vaccine. It is totally irrational. I have also on more than one occasion had someone threaten to kill me for contacting them.
I don’t think I’ve talked to a single person who said they weren’t vaccinated because they hated needles.
Fear of needles is a real concern: "Research by Covid States shows that about 14 percent of the remaining unvaccinated mention fear of needles as a factor."
You said "most", so don't claim victory so quickly. ;)
And besides, Grouchy said they haven't spoken to a single person who claimed a needle fear, which I have no reason to doubt. But at least some of them may be lying about that (or not even realize because all their concerns are mixed up in their mind).
I expect they would, but that's not very meaningful once they have denied COVID is real. If you asked me if I accept the risk that the aliens hiding in Area 51 might enslave humanity, I'd say "yes" too.
Maybe, but I have not seen any polling the characterizes the views of anti-vaxers on this question. Maybe you are dealing with the statistical extreme and I'm stuck with the median anti-vaxer.
I don't think you can make a good argument that anti vax people are less irrational than over zealous covid progressives. If you want to ignore the science in favor of more or less restriction than you are essentially the same ideologically. It seems like you are just overweighting irrationality of the progressives because of your own bias.
No, I am not. Because I know the mortality numbers, the science and the data.
A person who is not-vaccinated is extremely unlikely to die. (1 in 6000 maybe) (odds are most of them had covid already), and they are living full and productive lives. Their risk is slightly higher than pre-pandemic and they are sacrificing nothing. (if the person is under 50, their risk is effectively the same as pre-pandemic)
A person who is vaccinated is super, duper not likely to die or get sick, and they are not living full and productive lives. Their risk is exactly the same as it was pre-pandemic yet they are sacrificing a lot.
I guarantee that I know the science way better than you do, and the data.
In February of 2020 I was calling bullshit on the people who said masks dont work. Doctors and scientists were literally responsible for 1000s of deaths. If people had listened to me, a lot of people would be alive. I bet you listened to the scientists.
I absolutely trust my judgement more than yours. I have a record of researching and being right.
To put it in ecomomics terms. Risk is cost. Quality of Life is the product.
Anti-vaxers are paying slightly more unknowingly for the same product they always had.
The irrational (not all progressives are irrational) mask and limit lifers who are vaccinated are VOLUNTARILY paying the same amount for an inferior product compared to what they had.
I would of done a better job that the CDC and FDA and our experts did.
I would of had challenge trials at the beginning. Had the vaccine approved by Summer of 2020. I would have of had Trump sell it as an American kicks ass thing.
Masks would of been mandated in February. Schools would of never been canceled.
I think the difference is that there are way way more people who refuse to get the shot, typically for bad reasons, then there are people who are willingly shutting themselves off from living life more enjoyably now that they are vaccinated.
Granted that the latter are still annoying as all heck. But the vast majority of people who have gotten the shots really want to get back to normal life.
This. I got the shot and I still mask indoors when it's legally required but I'm all for returning to as much pre pandemic life as possible. It's just bad to pretend covid isn't real and this entire thing is a big brother deep state operation. I think the far left and right are both way overestimating the crazies on the other side and the polling generally bears this out.
We were pretty goddamned serious about isolating, etc. in the opening phases (yay China contacts). This was when there was no good treatment and the medical community wasn't yet confident in the profile of who would suffer most. So yea, we listened to the scientists, lol.
Except that I already had purchased a box of 200 3M N95 masks, as well as 20 child-sized blown mesh ones, in late December 2019 and built a homemade UVC sanitizing box to allow for safe reuse on weekly intervals.
Lol. I went a bit nuts, back when we were still in "will essential services continue if folks are too afraid to leave the house?" mode. Lessee...
I'm still running down the supply of canned and dry goods we laid in.
Most of the masks are there for future construction projects.
Almost all of the Clorox wipes got donated to the pre-school.
I finally overturned my 50-gallon drum of potable water and drained it last week. I'd been dropping a few capfuls of bleach in almost every week for a year and a half.
I just remembered two weeks ago to use the 2 10-gallon gas cans to fill both cars before it absorbs too much moisture.
The generator has never and likely will never be fired up.
My home defense weapon is still in its safe and has never left. I do need to go up to my dad's one weekend and get some stress shooting time in at the range where he maintains a membership, I'm rusty to the point of uselessness. Spray and pray would be the name of the game if someone broke in tomorrow.
AFAIK, yes. And I believe Moderna is roughly 3x the dose of Pfizer though TBH I don‘t fully know what that means given that they‘re not exactly the same thing.
Ah, this is what started our argument. Yeah, you might have a point. My bias is pretty high on the issue.
I guess I should be more specific. I am talking about the type of progressives, who are under the age of 40, are fully vaccinated, wear masks everywhere, even outside when no one is around, and are fearful that their kids will burst into flames if little Johnny next door goes to school with a masks on with their kids. They also refused to fly, won't eat in restaurants, and generally live in fear.
You don't think that there is a significant portion of the population is overly fearful?
I live in a purple area outside a deep blue political sea (imagine thin blue line flags, rainbow yard signs, Priuses and F-250's on the same block) and I can tell you 95% of the people I know are perfectly rational about most of this issue. Even folks I know who were waving flags during the marches last summer and own pink pussy hats are taking their kids to day care and going to with park maskless. I think the media plays up the insanity on both sides and the reality is very different. All that said, I'm much more concerned about what the NSA can do in my email inbox than a mandate over vaccines during the pandemic and I really worry the conservative movement has lost the plot on what tools are actually used to curtail freedom. The next authoritarian leader has a great playbook for how to co-opt "patriots" while shutting down freedom all around them.
I have no issues with mandates over vaccines. I 100% support them. (my only issue is with mask mandates)
I'm not worried so much about my email inbox, because digital privacy is an unobtainable goal.
I'm a simple guy. I worry much more about small things in my daily life.
I travel for work. When I'm home, I go to the gym, hang out at my Brother in Laws restaurant, work on my classic cars, and work on my cabin. I go out to eat.
I am fully 100% vaccinated. So is my entire household. My wife, kids and I have no risk... none. My brother-in-law who is an unvaccinated smoker with health issues does, but that's on him. I love him, but I told him to get vaccinated, attempted to convince him.
All I want to do is not wear masks. That's it. I'm good wearing one at the Hospital or Doctors office, but other than that, I just want to go about my life like it was in 2019.
Yet, when I fly... which I do a lot... I am stuck wearing a mask for 8-hours straight, all so we can protect the unvaccinated.
My earlier comment about irrationality boils down to this. The anti-vaxers aren't putting me or loved ones at risk. They aren't making me do anything, making me not wear anything.
It's the other side that making kids wear masks, making me wear a mask when I travel to blue states, making me have space out when I stand in lines, making me unable to serve my own breakfast in a hotel.
The vaccines is so fricking good and effective, that once fully vaccinated, statistically you are at the same overall risk as you were pre-pandemic.
So lets all move on.
Also, its not my emails I worry about, its my whatsapp chats. Thats where all the shady shit goes down.
I had a work event cancelled earlier this month because it was slated to be in Boise.
Now, there's some sanity there as the typical attendee for that conference is in their mid-50's. But I, myself, said "let's do it" when the association head asked.
I figured that, worse comes to worst, I try to mostly chill at home the week prior so that I don't end up showing symptoms there and getting stuck without a return flight.
But otherwise, screw it. I'm done.
The only difference between us, I think, is that I'm more willing than you to hold a gun to the heads of the antis and ram it down their throats, because I'd like to see them live. Really, even that is more down to "their communities have vulnerable folks who are trying to protect themselves but can't unless others protect them."
But that doesn't extend to masking up when they refuse to do anything to protect themselves.
I got vaccinated as soon as possible and am incredibly frustrated by people choosing not to be vaccinated. However, I'm not thrilled about the government using coercion on this scale. How does the rationale we're using for covid vaccines not apply to:
All possible vaccinations (flu shots, etc.), blood donations, become an organ donor, etc....
All of which I have done voluntarily! - but there is difference between doing something voluntarily and being coerced by the government.
I actually am sympathetic with you, but quite simply if vaccine mandates mean I don’t have to wear masks, I’m good with it.
So basically I am a selfish hypocrite.
I want whatever it takes to allow mask mandates to end. That’s it. If they said everyone needed to shave their heads one time. Fuck it. Give me the clippers.
Ahh, then we're in complete agreement on all fronts, haha.
I'm vaccinated, this is never going to go away, and I am not going to continue to be paranoid about the decision to "get sick now or get sick later."
But I have no issue with lots of coercion put behind effective public health policies. Namely...
Vaccines for everyone, their uncle, and their deceased grandparents! Dig up the recently dead and give them the shot too, just to make sure. Maybe the family dog and cat each get an attenuated viral vaccine as well, why not?
If you were king you could just say: “Everyone must be vaccinated.” You wouldn’t even have to worry that your mandate comported with something as silly as the US Constitution!
The strange thing is that everyone poo poos COVID child mortality when it's many times more fatal to children than chicken pox, which we routinely vaccinate for.
Note: I deleted an earlier post where I was wrong. I will copy below so you can see. But I just wanted to be fair to Seneca. I don't want anyone to see my wrong info and think its correct.
My super power is being able to admit when I'm wrong!
In fact there are 75 million children under the age of 17 in the US, so using your number the number of deaths from COVID should be 150 if they all had it.
Even if you’re going to assert that deaths are mischaracterized the CFR you’re using is probably off by a factor of at least 9.
There are 542 deaths between the ages of 0-17 according to the CDC. According to your assertion that means 271 million children have had COVID in the USA.
The fatality rate for varicella actually increases with age, but even using a rate of 4-5 per 100,000, there are already many more COVID deaths than there would have been varicella deaths.
That estimate of the CFR you’re using is clearly not correct.
That's a good point; Rory's number is based on the total population, I think (not his fault - the article is not so clear on this point). These data suggest the CFR for 0-17 is ~15/100,000. Almost all of those cases were symptomatic, though, so no doubt an overestimate; if we assume asymptomatic cases are roughly equal to symptomatic ones, it comes down to ~8/100,000. No doubt that number will be significantly lower if you only consider children with no risk factors, but I didn't see the data broken out like that here, at least.
I didn't actually know it either... but remember my mantra... don't trust until you verify. So I looked it up (it sound like it might not be true), gut feeling was right.
When my youngest daughter got covid, I was hoping my 11-year old would as well, just to get it over with.
"Basically, I wear a mask on airplanes and half-assedly in airports, only because my job requires me to fly."
It is my understanding (I could be wrong!) that this is somewhat backwards? On an airplane, I thought the ventilation systems were actually really good (once you're in flight - not true during taxiing/sitting at gate) and you basically only put your seatmate at risk. But waiting at a departure gate you've got lots of people there.
Of course, the airplane enforces mask mandates more thoroughly than the airport (we finally took our first airplane flight during the pandemic and I was getting basically a very mild reprimand(reminder) that my 6 year-old daughter should put her mask on between every bite of her airline snack - but she was eating these things at a pretty good clip - putting on and taking off the mask would probably have made her have LESS mask time)
So maybe we've opted for the less-useful but easy-to-enforce method over the potentially more-useful but more difficult to enforce method. (see: surface disinfecting)
Yes... obviously the mask requirement is dumb on airplanes given the ventilation.
But the cost of not wearing a mask is a flight ban, therefore despite it being stupid, I comply.
And I don't care how crowded or stuffy the gate area is. There are exactly three sets of people.
1. vaccinated - effectively zero risk
2. non-vaccinated - fuck em
3. kids - effectively zero risk
I mean I wear my mask loosely... usually right on the tip of my nose, I've also learned to fold the bottom of my mask up underneath so that it sort of hangs over my mouth but lets me breath.
I have also perfected the art of pulling my mask down to do something, and then "forgetting" to pull it up until I absently pretend to remember, and pull it up, only to repeat a minute later.
Also, just get the seats facing the windows, take the mask off, and no one cares.
The risk for vaccinated is certainly not "effectively zero". Maybe for 1n 18 year old healthy person it is, but there are a lot of 80 year old vaccinated people with comorbidities.
And your mask behavior is actually the type of behavior that causes problems. I don't know you're vaccinated. In fact your behavior is much more consistent with the anti-vax crowd. So there's a good chance, I'm probably that jerk who is going to rudely remind you that you need to follow the rules or get out.
The issue seems to be that for folks with compromised immune systems (either because of age or a condition) the "respiratory disease that can seriously harm you" situation is just going to be worse for the next five years than it was prior to 2020. Not clear what society does about this because most people aren't in that situation, but some of the "lots of masking" rules are about trying to get the risk for an 80-year-old back to 2019 levels, which maybe vaccines can't do by themselves.
I wish I better understood what immuno-compromised really meant. It seems like one of those vague catchall conditions like ADHD. In my ignorance, I imagine there are some people with legitimate genetic or birth disorders lumped in with people who seem to have weaker than average immune systems for no reason lumped in with various other unhealthy or elderly or infirm people.
The spectrum of possible immune strength and causes makes the issue really tricky. I feel bad for an 80 year old guy who is compromised because of cancer but nearly as bad as I do for a young teenager that has to live in a bubble her whole life. But I also imagine the numbers on these categories of people are very different and what society should do for them is different as well.
Age is probably the biggest risk factor. If you add common conditions for seniors, the risks add up (diabetes, heart disease, lung disease, cancer.) Obesity is a huge risk factor. The young people that get really bad disease are often overweight.
"Immunocompromised" really means medication that suppress the immune system (chemo, meds for auto-immune disease), AIDS and certain very rare congenital diseases.
But, as I've been reminding people over and over, these were always risk factors for getting complications from respiratory illnesses. It's not clear to me that the risk is higher for covid post-vaccination than it has always been for respiratory illnesses of all kinds. My opinion is that masking makes sense in certain places (doctor's office, hospital, maybe mass transit) and otherwise, it's time to allow people to unmask. LA county is crazy conservative regarding Covid and I don't foresee a time when they will relax their indoor mask requirement. I want to go back to my exercise class w/o a mask, but I don't think that will be allowed any time soon. If you go 1 hour away to Orange County, rules are much less strict.
Some of this is media-driven. We were allowed to go w/o masks in early July just before Delta was really surging. Yes, cases went up. The LA times was brutally critical about public health relaxing masking rules. And here we are today with an indoor mask requirement and, as far as I'm aware, no mention of what parameters need to be met before those rules will be lifted again.
The thing is the teenager probably doesn't have to live in a bubble of any sort if people would just do the most basic things. The simplest is to be vaccinated. If everyone who could be vaccinated, got the shots, we probably could do without any other restriction.
But apparently since people can't do vaccines , we need a bunch of backstops.
I have a young teenager who is living a full life. Yes, he has to wear a mask at school. He plays basketball and he does wear one there (usually -- depends on the audience). And we only eat at restaurants that require proof of vaccination. We go to football games, bowling, and attend birthday parties. He wears masks where appropriate, and does so in a way that is intended.
Would he prefer not to wear a mask? Yes. Does he feel like he's in a bubble now? No. We can protect some people, while still largely living our life.
To some extent it's just plain age. There was a comment from Emily Oster some months back that an unvaccinated kid had the same risk as a vaccinated grandma. This turned out to be sort of wrong - but only because it understated the issue (I think the equivalent was about a 45-year old, not a 70-year old). So it's just older folks without other issues that are at increased risk in a COVID world. But getting that risk down to 2019 levels (as opposed to only a bit worse than 2019 levels) seems very costly.
...effectively zero-risk for kids, but I live in a multi-generation household with a immune-suppressed person in their 70's on chemotherapy, so if/when one of my kids brings covid home, it's a Big Fucking Deal.
I'm totally with you—I don't like mask theater nor do I like wearing a mask just for the idiots who refuse to get vaccinated and it's double annoying for those of us who have to fly for work—but I prefer that everyone sit tight until kids under 12 can get their vaccine. Then we're just down to the non-vaccinated and the small percentage of the population that is immune-suppressed and, unfortunately, we can't wear masks forever just for them.
So let's ring in the new year by ditching covid theater. We can toss our masks in the air when the ball drops.
I suspect you are referring to school masking. I am ok having indoor mask mandates until exactly one month after vaccines are approved for those under 12. That's it.
I fully expect the powers to be to make excuses after that... on... not enough kids have taken it... oh what about the immune suppressed... oh blah, blah, blah.
No, I'm referring to adults not wearing masks in public spaces around my kids. But yes, as soon as the vaccine is available for kids I want our school to ditch masks and add covid boosters to the normal push for flu shots every fall. I'm totally fine with adding it to the mandatory vaccines—in our county they already require the varicella vaccine, so go ahead and add covid, why not.
As a vaccinated, bushy-bearded and bespectacled person, I am particularly irked by dumb rules like having to put on a mask just to walk my kids to the front door of the school from the car. And my kids (neither of whom are bearded or bespectacled) are indescribably sick of having a mask on all day at school.
My immunocompromised teacher friends would vastly prefer that school mask mandates stay in place until all the kids in their classes can *and are mandated to* get vaccinated. As long as the willpower to mandate vaccines is lacking, masks still have a role.
If I was immune compromised I would choose a job that put myself at the level of risk that I was comfortable with and not expect others to have to accommodate me by changing their entire life type.
But making others sacrifice so I didn’t have to is another alternative I guess.
I'm perfectly happy to wait until ten-ish weeks after the 5-11s have a chance to get their first shot, then treat all of this as pretty much not my problem.
You got vaccinated and got a serious breakthrough infection? I am very sorry that this happened to you, but that's going to happen to people at low rates forever. You didn't get vaccinated, got sick, and had bad outcomes? Thoughts and prayers.
Ventilation is not good on airplanes during flight. The air in the cabin must be compressed and is diverted off of the engines. It saps power lengthening flights and costing fuel (which means you must cary more fuel which also costs fuel). Accordingly, they basically keep air circulation to a minimum. If they did circulate substantial amounts of fresh air, it would be bitterly cold. It is all that previously respired air that keeps it so warm and humid on flights.
> The air in the cabin must be compressed and is diverted off of the engines. It saps power lengthening flights and costing fuel (which means you must cary more fuel which also costs fuel). Accordingly, they basically keep air circulation to a minimum. If they did circulate substantial amounts of fresh air, it would be bitterly cold.
It turns out that when you have two power plants throwing off massive amounts of rotational energy, it's shockingly easy to put compressors next to them and run them for free. Also, compressing air raises its temperature (yay, thermodynamics!).
> It is all that previously respired air that keeps it so warm and humid on flights.
Airplane air is notoriously *dry*, to the point where one of the major advances on the 777 was how much more humid the cabin was.
I was in this boat last summer. As someone who wears glasses and lives in a humid area (Portland, OR, area), my glasses are forever fogging up. Also, I like to do group exercise classes at the gym - easily the best way for me to stay in shape. That's a serious issue. My wife teaches and cannot judge students' expressions (she teaches math, so reading nonverbal cues is needed), which is a problem because a whole bunch of introverted students don't speak up in class. This is true in common professional spaces, too, like meetings.
I work from home on the regular. I'm a lot more effective around people, though. I'm also pretty social and would LOVE to get back out with co-workers and friends.
From a clinical perspective, there's an argument that not getting regular exposure to pathogens is weakening our immune systems, too. A fellow Substacker, Dr. Katelyn Jetelina, talked a bit about the risks from influenza and RSV this year since no one got exposure last year. We're weakening ourselves.
I may have a higher risk tolerance than many but, honestly, if the disease is gonna be around anyway - I haven't read a single ID specialist yet that thinks eradication is even possible, let alone probable - we should get to modifying our living and working spaces to limit spread, then be really tolerant of others who would like to wear masks wherever they go.
Yeah... I've mentioned the immunity deficit issue several times.
Is it possible that our kids end up with chronic allergies or immune issues because they were so sheltered during the time in their lives when they are meant to be eating dirt in order to build up a life long immunity.
Dude. My whole persona is based around working man’s common sense. I have to insert these grammatical errors on purpose to hide my secret Ivy League education. Gives me credibility.
It does protect people with impaired immune systems. My wife and I wore a mask for tightly packed inside events (despite 3 shots each) because she was pregnant. Not sure if that was necessary but there does not appear to be enough data to be sure it is not.
I no longer participate in Covid Theater. I am fully vaccinated, with a booster. I however will not wear a mask unless I am legally mandated to do so (and then, only if its a do it or be kicked out way). Basically, I wear a mask on airplanes and half-assedly in airports, only because my job requires me to fly.
I will not put on a mask in any other place except for a medical establishment.
The simple fact is, the only reason we wear masks is to protect the very idiots that are unwilling to get vaccinated and I don't give a fuck about them.
Before someone mentions kids.... the risk is miniscule. Yesterday I decided to look up excess deaths my age, and the mortality rate for children is 15-20% lower during Covid that it was before Covid.
The ridiculous amounts of Covid theater we go through are more likely to cause a civil war or permanent split in our country than any other issue.
I've come to the conclusion that blue-state Covid worrying progressives are more irrational than anti-vaxers.
All the anti-vaxers I know at least acknowledge there is some risk, but at the end of the day, they were willing to take it, and that living a normal life is more important. I might not agree with their risk tolerance and evaluation, but I understand it.
Its the young progressive vaccinated people who wear masks everywhere, and avoid leading a normal life that I don't understand. Sacrificing enjoying life, for risk that is equivalent to pre-covid times is ridiculous.
Yesterday in Twitter, I saw someone post a comment from someone who lives in Pasadena who were terrified because they had to bring their two year old kids to Idaho next week. TERRIFIED.
Idaho has had zero children die from Covid. Child mortality is down 15-20%. There child is safer coming to Idaho during the pandemic that they were just living in Pasadena pre-pandemic.
Ok... since I travel. Here is my list of useless pandemic theater
1. the wipes they give you on airplanes even though they say they do super cleaning on planes
2. hotels that won't let you serve your own breakfast, but instead make you stand in line so some person can hand you your plate
3. mask requirements in drive-throughs
4. hotel key disinfectant boxes
5. insisting on contactless payment
The whole world is crazy and I refuse to play it's game.
>> "All the anti-vaxers I know at least acknowledge there is some risk."
Interesting. All the anti-vaxers I have seen here in central NC are covid deniers. All the protesters at our school board meetings have been anti-vax, anti-mask, covid-denying types. I have yet to hear a "I know there is some COVID risk but not going back to normal life is more harmful" from any of those folks. A friend is on the school board and she has not heard that either. Obviously "people who protest at school boards" has some selection bias in it, but I wonder if the garden variety anti-vaxer is different in different parts of the country.
I thought about this a little more. The protestors are a tiny percentage of anti-vaxers... they are the crazy ones.
Most anti-vaxers are the type who are scare of needles, fall prey to bad information on facebook, realize Covid is dangerous, but that the risk to them personally is reasonable, but overestimate the risk of Vaccines... or alternatively just don't know the risk of vaccines, so opt to accept slightly higher risk of covid vs unknown risk (to them) of the vaccine.
As someone who has been in contact with literally thousands of people all over the country, encouraging them to get vaccines, I call bs. People who don’t want the shot overwhelming say they believe the vaccine is more dangerous than the disease, that COVID is a hoax, or claim that several of their friends have died after getting the vaccine. It is totally irrational. I have also on more than one occasion had someone threaten to kill me for contacting them.
I don’t think I’ve talked to a single person who said they weren’t vaccinated because they hated needles.
Fear of needles is a real concern: "Research by Covid States shows that about 14 percent of the remaining unvaccinated mention fear of needles as a factor."
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/15/opinion/covid-vaccines-unvaccinated.html
I take back my admission that Grouchy could be right about needles.
Nice save for me James... I was going by memory.
You said "most", so don't claim victory so quickly. ;)
And besides, Grouchy said they haven't spoken to a single person who claimed a needle fear, which I have no reason to doubt. But at least some of them may be lying about that (or not even realize because all their concerns are mixed up in their mind).
Eh... Im willing to concede the point about needles. But would they really say they were afraid of needles!
Other than that, I think everything else matches your experiences.
Yes, they are denying types. But, if you ask them the question... even if covid was real, do you accept the risk, yes or no, they would say yes.
I expect they would, but that's not very meaningful once they have denied COVID is real. If you asked me if I accept the risk that the aliens hiding in Area 51 might enslave humanity, I'd say "yes" too.
See my other post. Seems you are dealing with the extremos.
Maybe, but I have not seen any polling the characterizes the views of anti-vaxers on this question. Maybe you are dealing with the statistical extreme and I'm stuck with the median anti-vaxer.
No one who attends a school board meeting is a median anything.
I don't think you can make a good argument that anti vax people are less irrational than over zealous covid progressives. If you want to ignore the science in favor of more or less restriction than you are essentially the same ideologically. It seems like you are just overweighting irrationality of the progressives because of your own bias.
No, I am not. Because I know the mortality numbers, the science and the data.
A person who is not-vaccinated is extremely unlikely to die. (1 in 6000 maybe) (odds are most of them had covid already), and they are living full and productive lives. Their risk is slightly higher than pre-pandemic and they are sacrificing nothing. (if the person is under 50, their risk is effectively the same as pre-pandemic)
A person who is vaccinated is super, duper not likely to die or get sick, and they are not living full and productive lives. Their risk is exactly the same as it was pre-pandemic yet they are sacrificing a lot.
I guarantee that I know the science way better than you do, and the data.
In February of 2020 I was calling bullshit on the people who said masks dont work. Doctors and scientists were literally responsible for 1000s of deaths. If people had listened to me, a lot of people would be alive. I bet you listened to the scientists.
https://twitter.com/rorynotsorry/status/1233385024533098496?s=20
Two months ago, I went an got a moderna booster after having pfizer. People told me I was dumb, it was dangerous. Today:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/18/us/politics/fda-mix-and-match-boosters.html
I absolutely trust my judgement more than yours. I have a record of researching and being right.
To put it in ecomomics terms. Risk is cost. Quality of Life is the product.
Anti-vaxers are paying slightly more unknowingly for the same product they always had.
The irrational (not all progressives are irrational) mask and limit lifers who are vaccinated are VOLUNTARILY paying the same amount for an inferior product compared to what they had.
You alone can fix it huh?
I would of done a better job that the CDC and FDA and our experts did.
I would of had challenge trials at the beginning. Had the vaccine approved by Summer of 2020. I would have of had Trump sell it as an American kicks ass thing.
Masks would of been mandated in February. Schools would of never been canceled.
So not me alone. But better than the other dudes.
I wish you luck on your time quest. Bet on LSU to beat Florida for me.
Im a USC supporter, you don't want me near anything that involves college football that you care about. I've been cursed with Helton for 7-years.
But going with my general theme of awesomeness... I would of fired him back in 2017 if they had hired me instead of Lynn Swann.
One thing you should not do though is take my investing advice. Unless you want to do the exact opposite of me.
If you buy when I sell, and sell when I buy, you would probably be a bitcoin millionaire.
I think the difference is that there are way way more people who refuse to get the shot, typically for bad reasons, then there are people who are willingly shutting themselves off from living life more enjoyably now that they are vaccinated.
Granted that the latter are still annoying as all heck. But the vast majority of people who have gotten the shots really want to get back to normal life.
This. I got the shot and I still mask indoors when it's legally required but I'm all for returning to as much pre pandemic life as possible. It's just bad to pretend covid isn't real and this entire thing is a big brother deep state operation. I think the far left and right are both way overestimating the crazies on the other side and the polling generally bears this out.
"I bet you listened to the scientists."
We were pretty goddamned serious about isolating, etc. in the opening phases (yay China contacts). This was when there was no good treatment and the medical community wasn't yet confident in the profile of who would suffer most. So yea, we listened to the scientists, lol.
Except that I already had purchased a box of 200 3M N95 masks, as well as 20 child-sized blown mesh ones, in late December 2019 and built a homemade UVC sanitizing box to allow for safe reuse on weekly intervals.
Trust but verify, yo.
I’m not surprised about you David! Not at all.
Bo however seems like a run of the mill type though. Always having to adjust their thinking when the bureaucracy catches up to the actual science.
My feeling from our debates is that you and I are both the deep research with source material have skepticism types.
You are more generous than I am though.
I’m not trust or verify.
I’m don’t trust until I have verified type. Lol.
Straw man, huckleberry, whatever you need Rory.
Hey Bo! I don't think that's an exact straw man argument. I provided receipts for my examples.
What were you right about or early on, that was against CDC or FDA recommendations. Where did you excise your rebellious streak?
Lol. I went a bit nuts, back when we were still in "will essential services continue if folks are too afraid to leave the house?" mode. Lessee...
I'm still running down the supply of canned and dry goods we laid in.
Most of the masks are there for future construction projects.
Almost all of the Clorox wipes got donated to the pre-school.
I finally overturned my 50-gallon drum of potable water and drained it last week. I'd been dropping a few capfuls of bleach in almost every week for a year and a half.
I just remembered two weeks ago to use the 2 10-gallon gas cans to fill both cars before it absorbs too much moisture.
The generator has never and likely will never be fired up.
My home defense weapon is still in its safe and has never left. I do need to go up to my dad's one weekend and get some stress shooting time in at the range where he maintains a membership, I'm rusty to the point of uselessness. Spray and pray would be the name of the game if someone broke in tomorrow.
Better safe than sorry, right?
You own guns! I’m shocked.
I used to own guns but they were all lost in a freak biting accident. No you can not look in that gun safe. It’s all personal paperwork.
Did you get a full Moderna booster (presumably) rather than the current ½ dose? You may be even more protected than my 2x J&J + Pfizer buddy.
Yes, I got the full booster. I haven't actually read about the Moderna booster, is it a 1/2 shot?
I will say the Moderna shot fucked me up compared to my two pfizer shots.
They are essentially the same thing but the Moderna dose is 100 µg and Pfizer is 30 µg -- so huge dosage difference.
For boosters, Moderna is a half dose, 50 µg, and Pfizer is the full 30 µg.
AFAIK, yes. And I believe Moderna is roughly 3x the dose of Pfizer though TBH I don‘t fully know what that means given that they‘re not exactly the same thing.
Ah, this is what started our argument. Yeah, you might have a point. My bias is pretty high on the issue.
I guess I should be more specific. I am talking about the type of progressives, who are under the age of 40, are fully vaccinated, wear masks everywhere, even outside when no one is around, and are fearful that their kids will burst into flames if little Johnny next door goes to school with a masks on with their kids. They also refused to fly, won't eat in restaurants, and generally live in fear.
You don't think that there is a significant portion of the population is overly fearful?
I live in a purple area outside a deep blue political sea (imagine thin blue line flags, rainbow yard signs, Priuses and F-250's on the same block) and I can tell you 95% of the people I know are perfectly rational about most of this issue. Even folks I know who were waving flags during the marches last summer and own pink pussy hats are taking their kids to day care and going to with park maskless. I think the media plays up the insanity on both sides and the reality is very different. All that said, I'm much more concerned about what the NSA can do in my email inbox than a mandate over vaccines during the pandemic and I really worry the conservative movement has lost the plot on what tools are actually used to curtail freedom. The next authoritarian leader has a great playbook for how to co-opt "patriots" while shutting down freedom all around them.
I have no issues with mandates over vaccines. I 100% support them. (my only issue is with mask mandates)
I'm not worried so much about my email inbox, because digital privacy is an unobtainable goal.
I'm a simple guy. I worry much more about small things in my daily life.
I travel for work. When I'm home, I go to the gym, hang out at my Brother in Laws restaurant, work on my classic cars, and work on my cabin. I go out to eat.
I am fully 100% vaccinated. So is my entire household. My wife, kids and I have no risk... none. My brother-in-law who is an unvaccinated smoker with health issues does, but that's on him. I love him, but I told him to get vaccinated, attempted to convince him.
All I want to do is not wear masks. That's it. I'm good wearing one at the Hospital or Doctors office, but other than that, I just want to go about my life like it was in 2019.
Yet, when I fly... which I do a lot... I am stuck wearing a mask for 8-hours straight, all so we can protect the unvaccinated.
My earlier comment about irrationality boils down to this. The anti-vaxers aren't putting me or loved ones at risk. They aren't making me do anything, making me not wear anything.
It's the other side that making kids wear masks, making me wear a mask when I travel to blue states, making me have space out when I stand in lines, making me unable to serve my own breakfast in a hotel.
The vaccines is so fricking good and effective, that once fully vaccinated, statistically you are at the same overall risk as you were pre-pandemic.
So lets all move on.
Also, its not my emails I worry about, its my whatsapp chats. Thats where all the shady shit goes down.
I had a work event cancelled earlier this month because it was slated to be in Boise.
Now, there's some sanity there as the typical attendee for that conference is in their mid-50's. But I, myself, said "let's do it" when the association head asked.
I figured that, worse comes to worst, I try to mostly chill at home the week prior so that I don't end up showing symptoms there and getting stuck without a return flight.
But otherwise, screw it. I'm done.
The only difference between us, I think, is that I'm more willing than you to hold a gun to the heads of the antis and ram it down their throats, because I'd like to see them live. Really, even that is more down to "their communities have vulnerable folks who are trying to protect themselves but can't unless others protect them."
But that doesn't extend to masking up when they refuse to do anything to protect themselves.
Actually I am very willing to hold a gun to the head of the antis.
If I were king...
All Federal and State employees would get vaccinated.
All companies that fall under OSHA would require vaccines.
Vaccines would be required on any public transport.
Medicaid or Medicare or any Government related healthcare plan would not cover anyone without the vaccine.
Unvaccinated would be last on the list for any medical care... beds, transplants, etc...
Schools would require 100% vaccinations no exceptions.
Government contractors would be required to have entire company vaccinated.
All companies over 100 employees... hell, maybe all companies all together.
If a person wanted to deal with that inconvenience and work for themselves... god speed.
I got vaccinated as soon as possible and am incredibly frustrated by people choosing not to be vaccinated. However, I'm not thrilled about the government using coercion on this scale. How does the rationale we're using for covid vaccines not apply to:
All possible vaccinations (flu shots, etc.), blood donations, become an organ donor, etc....
All of which I have done voluntarily! - but there is difference between doing something voluntarily and being coerced by the government.
I actually am sympathetic with you, but quite simply if vaccine mandates mean I don’t have to wear masks, I’m good with it.
So basically I am a selfish hypocrite.
I want whatever it takes to allow mask mandates to end. That’s it. If they said everyone needed to shave their heads one time. Fuck it. Give me the clippers.
I just want masks over.
tbh i feel this on a spiritual goddamn level
Judging by your profile picture, that's not much of a sacrifice.
I would prefer to enjoy my (slowly fading) hair while I still have it.
:-P
Also. The clippers were for you my friend… I’m going to hook you up!
Lol.
Ahh, then we're in complete agreement on all fronts, haha.
I'm vaccinated, this is never going to go away, and I am not going to continue to be paranoid about the decision to "get sick now or get sick later."
But I have no issue with lots of coercion put behind effective public health policies. Namely...
Vaccines for everyone, their uncle, and their deceased grandparents! Dig up the recently dead and give them the shot too, just to make sure. Maybe the family dog and cat each get an attenuated viral vaccine as well, why not?
If you were king you could just say: “Everyone must be vaccinated.” You wouldn’t even have to worry that your mandate comported with something as silly as the US Constitution!
Of course nothing he suggested was in any way unconstitutional.
I know. That was the joke.
If only it could be that way. Vaccines on public transport would probably be hella annoying to enforce, but otherwise I agree entirely.
The strange thing is that everyone poo poos COVID child mortality when it's many times more fatal to children than chicken pox, which we routinely vaccinate for.
Note: I deleted an earlier post where I was wrong. I will copy below so you can see. But I just wanted to be fair to Seneca. I don't want anyone to see my wrong info and think its correct.
My super power is being able to admit when I'm wrong!
And props to Seneca for correcting me!
-------------------------------------------------------
This is not accurate.
The fatality rate for children was 1 in 100K before vaccines. Reference: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/varicella.html
The risk of death from Covid is 2 in 1 million. Reference: https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57766717
While I agree that the Covid vaccine should be mandated for kids, I also like to be accurate.
In fact there are 75 million children under the age of 17 in the US, so using your number the number of deaths from COVID should be 150 if they all had it.
Even if you’re going to assert that deaths are mischaracterized the CFR you’re using is probably off by a factor of at least 9.
I hereby declare the above post wrong, and Seneca basically made me look like an idiot.
All hail Seneca! Master of Comments.
In all seriousness, I love learning new shit. One less thing to be wrong about in the future.
Should I delete the post above?
Don't feel so bad. I think you pulled pre-Delta numbers and Delta had a higher hospitalization rate for children.
There are 542 deaths between the ages of 0-17 according to the CDC. According to your assertion that means 271 million children have had COVID in the USA.
The fatality rate for varicella actually increases with age, but even using a rate of 4-5 per 100,000, there are already many more COVID deaths than there would have been varicella deaths.
That estimate of the CFR you’re using is clearly not correct.
That's a good point; Rory's number is based on the total population, I think (not his fault - the article is not so clear on this point). These data suggest the CFR for 0-17 is ~15/100,000. Almost all of those cases were symptomatic, though, so no doubt an overestimate; if we assume asymptomatic cases are roughly equal to symptomatic ones, it comes down to ~8/100,000. No doubt that number will be significantly lower if you only consider children with no risk factors, but I didn't see the data broken out like that here, at least.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7003e1.htm
Traitor! Just kidding... I am agreeing with you. Now I have to eat crow and change my argument to just save face!
What was the adult CFR for Chicken Pox?
Your CDC link on that appears correct as interpreted.
Good points. Damn, if I have to eat crow, I'm gong to be pissed off. Let me go off and research.
I didn't actually know it either... but remember my mantra... don't trust until you verify. So I looked it up (it sound like it might not be true), gut feeling was right.
When my youngest daughter got covid, I was hoping my 11-year old would as well, just to get it over with.
That'll teach me to trust you... :-P
Lol... you were just bragging about how you were trust but verify! Serves you right.
"Basically, I wear a mask on airplanes and half-assedly in airports, only because my job requires me to fly."
It is my understanding (I could be wrong!) that this is somewhat backwards? On an airplane, I thought the ventilation systems were actually really good (once you're in flight - not true during taxiing/sitting at gate) and you basically only put your seatmate at risk. But waiting at a departure gate you've got lots of people there.
https://www.vox.com/21525068/covid-19-airplane-risk-coronavirus-pandemic-airports
Of course, the airplane enforces mask mandates more thoroughly than the airport (we finally took our first airplane flight during the pandemic and I was getting basically a very mild reprimand(reminder) that my 6 year-old daughter should put her mask on between every bite of her airline snack - but she was eating these things at a pretty good clip - putting on and taking off the mask would probably have made her have LESS mask time)
So maybe we've opted for the less-useful but easy-to-enforce method over the potentially more-useful but more difficult to enforce method. (see: surface disinfecting)
Yes... obviously the mask requirement is dumb on airplanes given the ventilation.
But the cost of not wearing a mask is a flight ban, therefore despite it being stupid, I comply.
And I don't care how crowded or stuffy the gate area is. There are exactly three sets of people.
1. vaccinated - effectively zero risk
2. non-vaccinated - fuck em
3. kids - effectively zero risk
I mean I wear my mask loosely... usually right on the tip of my nose, I've also learned to fold the bottom of my mask up underneath so that it sort of hangs over my mouth but lets me breath.
I have also perfected the art of pulling my mask down to do something, and then "forgetting" to pull it up until I absently pretend to remember, and pull it up, only to repeat a minute later.
Also, just get the seats facing the windows, take the mask off, and no one cares.
The risk for vaccinated is certainly not "effectively zero". Maybe for 1n 18 year old healthy person it is, but there are a lot of 80 year old vaccinated people with comorbidities.
And your mask behavior is actually the type of behavior that causes problems. I don't know you're vaccinated. In fact your behavior is much more consistent with the anti-vax crowd. So there's a good chance, I'm probably that jerk who is going to rudely remind you that you need to follow the rules or get out.
The issue seems to be that for folks with compromised immune systems (either because of age or a condition) the "respiratory disease that can seriously harm you" situation is just going to be worse for the next five years than it was prior to 2020. Not clear what society does about this because most people aren't in that situation, but some of the "lots of masking" rules are about trying to get the risk for an 80-year-old back to 2019 levels, which maybe vaccines can't do by themselves.
I wish I better understood what immuno-compromised really meant. It seems like one of those vague catchall conditions like ADHD. In my ignorance, I imagine there are some people with legitimate genetic or birth disorders lumped in with people who seem to have weaker than average immune systems for no reason lumped in with various other unhealthy or elderly or infirm people.
The spectrum of possible immune strength and causes makes the issue really tricky. I feel bad for an 80 year old guy who is compromised because of cancer but nearly as bad as I do for a young teenager that has to live in a bubble her whole life. But I also imagine the numbers on these categories of people are very different and what society should do for them is different as well.
Age is probably the biggest risk factor. If you add common conditions for seniors, the risks add up (diabetes, heart disease, lung disease, cancer.) Obesity is a huge risk factor. The young people that get really bad disease are often overweight.
"Immunocompromised" really means medication that suppress the immune system (chemo, meds for auto-immune disease), AIDS and certain very rare congenital diseases.
But, as I've been reminding people over and over, these were always risk factors for getting complications from respiratory illnesses. It's not clear to me that the risk is higher for covid post-vaccination than it has always been for respiratory illnesses of all kinds. My opinion is that masking makes sense in certain places (doctor's office, hospital, maybe mass transit) and otherwise, it's time to allow people to unmask. LA county is crazy conservative regarding Covid and I don't foresee a time when they will relax their indoor mask requirement. I want to go back to my exercise class w/o a mask, but I don't think that will be allowed any time soon. If you go 1 hour away to Orange County, rules are much less strict.
Some of this is media-driven. We were allowed to go w/o masks in early July just before Delta was really surging. Yes, cases went up. The LA times was brutally critical about public health relaxing masking rules. And here we are today with an indoor mask requirement and, as far as I'm aware, no mention of what parameters need to be met before those rules will be lifted again.
The thing is the teenager probably doesn't have to live in a bubble of any sort if people would just do the most basic things. The simplest is to be vaccinated. If everyone who could be vaccinated, got the shots, we probably could do without any other restriction.
But apparently since people can't do vaccines , we need a bunch of backstops.
I have a young teenager who is living a full life. Yes, he has to wear a mask at school. He plays basketball and he does wear one there (usually -- depends on the audience). And we only eat at restaurants that require proof of vaccination. We go to football games, bowling, and attend birthday parties. He wears masks where appropriate, and does so in a way that is intended.
Would he prefer not to wear a mask? Yes. Does he feel like he's in a bubble now? No. We can protect some people, while still largely living our life.
To some extent it's just plain age. There was a comment from Emily Oster some months back that an unvaccinated kid had the same risk as a vaccinated grandma. This turned out to be sort of wrong - but only because it understated the issue (I think the equivalent was about a 45-year old, not a 70-year old). So it's just older folks without other issues that are at increased risk in a COVID world. But getting that risk down to 2019 levels (as opposed to only a bit worse than 2019 levels) seems very costly.
...effectively zero-risk for kids, but I live in a multi-generation household with a immune-suppressed person in their 70's on chemotherapy, so if/when one of my kids brings covid home, it's a Big Fucking Deal.
I'm totally with you—I don't like mask theater nor do I like wearing a mask just for the idiots who refuse to get vaccinated and it's double annoying for those of us who have to fly for work—but I prefer that everyone sit tight until kids under 12 can get their vaccine. Then we're just down to the non-vaccinated and the small percentage of the population that is immune-suppressed and, unfortunately, we can't wear masks forever just for them.
So let's ring in the new year by ditching covid theater. We can toss our masks in the air when the ball drops.
I suspect you are referring to school masking. I am ok having indoor mask mandates until exactly one month after vaccines are approved for those under 12. That's it.
I fully expect the powers to be to make excuses after that... on... not enough kids have taken it... oh what about the immune suppressed... oh blah, blah, blah.
No, I'm referring to adults not wearing masks in public spaces around my kids. But yes, as soon as the vaccine is available for kids I want our school to ditch masks and add covid boosters to the normal push for flu shots every fall. I'm totally fine with adding it to the mandatory vaccines—in our county they already require the varicella vaccine, so go ahead and add covid, why not.
As a vaccinated, bushy-bearded and bespectacled person, I am particularly irked by dumb rules like having to put on a mask just to walk my kids to the front door of the school from the car. And my kids (neither of whom are bearded or bespectacled) are indescribably sick of having a mask on all day at school.
My immunocompromised teacher friends would vastly prefer that school mask mandates stay in place until all the kids in their classes can *and are mandated to* get vaccinated. As long as the willpower to mandate vaccines is lacking, masks still have a role.
If I was immune compromised I would choose a job that put myself at the level of risk that I was comfortable with and not expect others to have to accommodate me by changing their entire life type.
But making others sacrifice so I didn’t have to is another alternative I guess.
I'm perfectly happy to wait until ten-ish weeks after the 5-11s have a chance to get their first shot, then treat all of this as pretty much not my problem.
You got vaccinated and got a serious breakthrough infection? I am very sorry that this happened to you, but that's going to happen to people at low rates forever. You didn't get vaccinated, got sick, and had bad outcomes? Thoughts and prayers.
"Bless your heart, I'm thinking of you." is even better for the last scenario.
Have actually used the phrase. Now I understand why Southerners love it.
I already suggested 4 weeks. Compromise at 7?
i like 4. the kiddos aren’t at much risk to begin with, one dose will make their risk trivial to all but the sickest
Ventilation is not good on airplanes during flight. The air in the cabin must be compressed and is diverted off of the engines. It saps power lengthening flights and costing fuel (which means you must cary more fuel which also costs fuel). Accordingly, they basically keep air circulation to a minimum. If they did circulate substantial amounts of fresh air, it would be bitterly cold. It is all that previously respired air that keeps it so warm and humid on flights.
This is false. The air change rate in a modern airliner is 20-30 changes per hour. But don't take my word for it, ask ASHRAE.
https://www.ashrae.org/file%20library/technical%20resources/covid-19/si_a19_ch13.pdf
Ok, thank you for the correction.
> The air in the cabin must be compressed and is diverted off of the engines. It saps power lengthening flights and costing fuel (which means you must cary more fuel which also costs fuel). Accordingly, they basically keep air circulation to a minimum. If they did circulate substantial amounts of fresh air, it would be bitterly cold.
It turns out that when you have two power plants throwing off massive amounts of rotational energy, it's shockingly easy to put compressors next to them and run them for free. Also, compressing air raises its temperature (yay, thermodynamics!).
> It is all that previously respired air that keeps it so warm and humid on flights.
Airplane air is notoriously *dry*, to the point where one of the major advances on the 777 was how much more humid the cabin was.
I was in this boat last summer. As someone who wears glasses and lives in a humid area (Portland, OR, area), my glasses are forever fogging up. Also, I like to do group exercise classes at the gym - easily the best way for me to stay in shape. That's a serious issue. My wife teaches and cannot judge students' expressions (she teaches math, so reading nonverbal cues is needed), which is a problem because a whole bunch of introverted students don't speak up in class. This is true in common professional spaces, too, like meetings.
I work from home on the regular. I'm a lot more effective around people, though. I'm also pretty social and would LOVE to get back out with co-workers and friends.
From a clinical perspective, there's an argument that not getting regular exposure to pathogens is weakening our immune systems, too. A fellow Substacker, Dr. Katelyn Jetelina, talked a bit about the risks from influenza and RSV this year since no one got exposure last year. We're weakening ourselves.
https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/go-get-your-flu-shot-especially-this
I may have a higher risk tolerance than many but, honestly, if the disease is gonna be around anyway - I haven't read a single ID specialist yet that thinks eradication is even possible, let alone probable - we should get to modifying our living and working spaces to limit spread, then be really tolerant of others who would like to wear masks wherever they go.
Yeah... I've mentioned the immunity deficit issue several times.
Is it possible that our kids end up with chronic allergies or immune issues because they were so sheltered during the time in their lives when they are meant to be eating dirt in order to build up a life long immunity.
Shelter in place did not keep my kid from eating dirt.
eating dirt is really a euphemism for being exposed do a wide variety of germs.
- breathing on other kids. (kids expose each other to germs, very efficient for sharing immunity strength)
- eating dirt from different places
- touching public door knobs
- crawling on the floor at the mall
- public playgrounds
All sources of wonderful germs.
Dirt is my kid's favorite thing. That and pond water.
On a separate, kid related noted. I just got my 15-year old daughter a subscription to Slowboring.
I might have to exaggerate less in the comments! But at least she can confirm how dumb I am.
Wearing a mask while you socialize is standoffish. I will tolerate it, but it makes company less appetizing.
I always enjoy your comments but this is your best yet.
I sort of do really love my last sentence.
Would be better with "its" instead of "it's", but close enough. ;)
Dude. My whole persona is based around working man’s common sense. I have to insert these grammatical errors on purpose to hide my secret Ivy League education. Gives me credibility.
It does protect people with impaired immune systems. My wife and I wore a mask for tightly packed inside events (despite 3 shots each) because she was pregnant. Not sure if that was necessary but there does not appear to be enough data to be sure it is not.