Maybe they could add windows that look out at the living room? If the living room has big windows, plenty of morning light could potentially get in. Would that satisfy the regulatory requirement?
I knew someone who did this in the financial district in NYC... It was a $1m+ apt and this person definitely had other options, but they preferred having extra living space and being close to work. A windowless bedroom was just not that big a deal when they only went in there to sleep!
I used to visit a friend in SF who lived in a basement converted to 2 rooms...neither of which had windows of any kind. Bare bulbs, bare concrete flooring, no kitchen, "door" cut out of the garage door. No way to see the sun without going all the way outside. Deeply depressing and uncomfortable all around, but it was all they could afford. I think that's the sort of "we have to have a better floor than that" sort of room that window legislation has in mind. (Though, the one upside of living in a basement is having in-unit laundry, a rare and exciting city perk...I'd happily trade my window for that, all else being equal!)
Light pollution is an underrated nuisance for dense city living. Blackout curtains work...if one's landlord will allow such modifications (the windows on my floor have blinds, not curtains, so it's a no-go). At one point, I got so tired of the across-the-alley unit's hypersensitive motion-activated light shining directly into my bedroom window that I just...boarded it up using cardboard. Spent years not being able to physically access my window, but it was a necessary sacrifice for sanity (let alone sleeping). In a perfect world, I think it'd be nice to have "Windows Optional" as the default...like, it wouldn't be illegal not to have bedroom windows, and maybe such units would come with a discount (or conversely, windowed bedrooms would come with a premium). Depressing or not, better to be housed windowlessly than homeless...right?
(Downside of no window: ventilation suffers. Fairly decent research on CO2 concentration - or is it oxygen levels? - having noticeable effects on cognition, sleep, and so on. I think converted office spaces would have adequate HVAC setups to account for this, but not sure? Upside of no window: easier to insulate, no need to weatherproof, one fewer break-in vulnerability. Yay for tradeoffs!)
I previously hated the idea of windowless bedrooms, as I like waking up to my room gradually filling with natural light. I'm warming to the idea now though, as I live in a busy part of the city where I'm not infrequently woken up by street noise, sirens, etc. Pick your poison, I suppose.
I also like the idea of mini, well-designed "pod" apartments that the NYT covered the other day: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/03/business/tiny-apartments-tokyo.html. For the $1500+ most people are paying these days to live in any slightly desirable/convenient parts of NYC with roommates, I can certainly imagine there's a good chunk of people who would pay something less than that (a man can cream) for one of these pod apartments.
I may go to interior design hell for this, but I want to point out that all of those bedrooms could have windows. They would just be windows looking out into the living area. That would provide another egress from the room and allow natural light in the day. And if you don't want people looking into your bedroom, frost the glass or put-up privacy curtains, like we do with every other window in existence.
A $1800 2BR in Manhattan but the bedroom doesn’t have windows? I take that in a *heartbeat*. What are the powers that be waiting for, let the apartment conversion machine go brrrrr!
I lived in a very similar loft type apartment in Williamsburg. The key is to install a window in the bedroom walls facing the living room so that you get light from the exterior window through into the bedroom. Problem solved.
I'm not sure why, but I think transoms are illegal due to new fire codes. You often see this design you're talking about in pre-war apartments to allow light to get into the hallway from the bedrooms. But at some point it stopped being allowed. Someone will have to check me on this.
This apartment which was remodeled in DC about 5 years ago has exactly that design (transom windows between bedroom and living room) so I think they are legal with current (updated?) building regulations. https://lexandleowaterfront.com/floor-plans/
The primary point is so basic. Allow windowless bedrooms! Just allow them. The worst case is a few thousand get built and they're unpopular. ie, rent ends up 15% less than hoped. Then developers either eventually pay less for future conversion buildings or no more get done.
I usually agree with you on development and real estate, but bedrooms need windows for quality of life. Not getting enough light is extremely depressing and you'd be surprised how few people actually notice it. If you're talking about a room share — if the roommates weren't getting along and one spent time in their room, you're talking about an extremely depressing place in terms of air quality and light. One roommate might have to sit in a windowless area whenever he was home until he could find a new place. For a family, they're going to want a room that's not the living room sometimes where a kid can play. And it's really really bad to have that other room have zero light. If a kid wants to work quietly in their room, sunshine is very important!
I almost think it would be better to covert huge office buildings to be co-living situations. As a trial option, it would be interested to see how it sold. There's no reason 20-40 single people can't live on a floor. These types of co-ops are extremely successful in universities and it would be great to introduce them to cities. It would be a more communal SRO. Each bedroom could have a window and its own sink, maybe even its own bathroom, like an SRO. And then a huge common space with a commercial kitchen and living and dining rooms. Make it super open like an office, so light can come in from one or two sides, then have the bedrooms along the other two sides. It's basically Fijan's floorpan, but take over the entire office floor. Another idea for this kind of floor-through layout would be senior housing. All female housing. Group family housing (2-4 families per floor sharing one huge industrial kitchen).
It's also worth noting that one of the huge issues with conversions is the cost. This real estate is often so valuable so the end result needs to be real upside money-wise, which means the rents or sales will be high. And are wealthy people really going to want to pay top dollar for an apartment with windowless bedrooms?
Living in a windowless bedroom (converted school I think) I didn't realize this was controversial until I saw Fijan posting about it. Less light, less noise, I've enjoyed it. And these buildings existing doesn't mean anyone is *forced* to live in a windowless bedroom, giving people choices is good imho
Just as a point of information, in downtown Chicago, Columbus, Milwaukee, even Chelsea I see tons of converted warehouse 1BR listings where the bedroom doesn’t have a window. Often the wall around the bedroom doesn’t fully reach the ceiling or there is glass at the top.
Mentioning Denver, I feel like it's worth noting that we have 1600 Glenarm Place on the 16th Street Mall (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1600_Glenarm_Place) as an example of a converted office tower. From the Wikipedia entry:
a 384 ft (117m) tall skyscraper in Denver, Colorado. Originally constructed in 1967 as the Security Life Building - it has since been converted into a multi-tenant luxury apartment complex. . . . In 2006, The Security Life Building underwent a major conversion from office to residential use. . . . The building houses 333 units, with a large scale amenity overhaul having been completed in 2011, to include a fitness center, movie theater, large outdoor terrace, demonstration kitchen, conference room and game room.
I have no clue what the floorplan looks like though.
If I read the 116 comments that came before to verify that this is not redundant, I will never get it written.....
There are three reasons why windows are in the codes: Light, Ventilation, and Egress.
Natural light is nice, but we can replace it with color corrected lighting. Lots of work environments do not have much natural light. Nor do northern cities in the winter. This is not really a big deal.
Ventilation can be replaced with mechanical ventilation. In residential settings, air is usually forced out with fans and naturally slips in through cracks. If you convert an office building to residential, you may want to design a way to bring some air in.
Egress is a tradeoff. Every modern bedroom has two methods of escape from fire: the door and a window. Each floor of every modern building has two methods of escape for the other rooms: typically front and back doors.
The example layout does not provide egress and would be expected to result in more deaths by fire, including deaths of firemen. That may be a tradeoff that society will accept. Providing egress from converted office space will be very expensive. But this is the problem that needs to be minimized if it can not be completely solved.
I think egress is a bit off, you generally don't want to egress through the window of a highrise even if you could, and most converted buildings will have sprinklers so I think they are comparable if not better safety wise.
Yup. I'm just not sure people realize exactly how "No windows, just color corrected lighting," is a turn off to many, many people. It's not just about the light (although nothing looks/feels like the sun)...but looking outside at the world. And mechanical ventilation feels nothing like a fresh breeze.
Not sure why you can't make apartments one entire floor and thereby allow windows. Yes these would be big units, but that would make them all the more marketable in a walkable neighborhood. And seems a better alternative then just leaving office space empty.
Also, one thing not discussed here is that a lot of these offices should probably have hotel rooms or other "short term" accommodations. Much easier to stay in a windowless room if it's only for a day or so. As you say Matt, there will still be need for some office space. But I think there are probably a decent number of people who instead of coming to the office once or twice a week, maybe are coming in once or twice a quarter for some big meeting or company event etc. The space gets to be used, companies have reason to still have an office location that at least some employees only come in occasionally. The office landlord can probably offer a big discount on renting those rooms (certainly one that will make it appealing compared to putting up an employee in a downtown hotel). Seems especially appealing in NYC where there is now (an insane) ban on building new hotels.
We're talking about 35,000 square feet here. That's be a huge apartment. I do think you could split the floors in half. Put bedrooms along the sides with windows and make like 50 bedrooms with their own bathrooms. Then make a big huge common space with an industrial kitchen for all the people to share. It'd be like co-living, it's done successfully all over the world and at many American college towns with upwards of 100 people. If people will go for windowless bedrooms, I think they'd go for this.
Maybe they could add windows that look out at the living room? If the living room has big windows, plenty of morning light could potentially get in. Would that satisfy the regulatory requirement?
I knew someone who did this in the financial district in NYC... It was a $1m+ apt and this person definitely had other options, but they preferred having extra living space and being close to work. A windowless bedroom was just not that big a deal when they only went in there to sleep!
I used to visit a friend in SF who lived in a basement converted to 2 rooms...neither of which had windows of any kind. Bare bulbs, bare concrete flooring, no kitchen, "door" cut out of the garage door. No way to see the sun without going all the way outside. Deeply depressing and uncomfortable all around, but it was all they could afford. I think that's the sort of "we have to have a better floor than that" sort of room that window legislation has in mind. (Though, the one upside of living in a basement is having in-unit laundry, a rare and exciting city perk...I'd happily trade my window for that, all else being equal!)
Light pollution is an underrated nuisance for dense city living. Blackout curtains work...if one's landlord will allow such modifications (the windows on my floor have blinds, not curtains, so it's a no-go). At one point, I got so tired of the across-the-alley unit's hypersensitive motion-activated light shining directly into my bedroom window that I just...boarded it up using cardboard. Spent years not being able to physically access my window, but it was a necessary sacrifice for sanity (let alone sleeping). In a perfect world, I think it'd be nice to have "Windows Optional" as the default...like, it wouldn't be illegal not to have bedroom windows, and maybe such units would come with a discount (or conversely, windowed bedrooms would come with a premium). Depressing or not, better to be housed windowlessly than homeless...right?
(Downside of no window: ventilation suffers. Fairly decent research on CO2 concentration - or is it oxygen levels? - having noticeable effects on cognition, sleep, and so on. I think converted office spaces would have adequate HVAC setups to account for this, but not sure? Upside of no window: easier to insulate, no need to weatherproof, one fewer break-in vulnerability. Yay for tradeoffs!)
I previously hated the idea of windowless bedrooms, as I like waking up to my room gradually filling with natural light. I'm warming to the idea now though, as I live in a busy part of the city where I'm not infrequently woken up by street noise, sirens, etc. Pick your poison, I suppose.
I also like the idea of mini, well-designed "pod" apartments that the NYT covered the other day: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/03/business/tiny-apartments-tokyo.html. For the $1500+ most people are paying these days to live in any slightly desirable/convenient parts of NYC with roommates, I can certainly imagine there's a good chunk of people who would pay something less than that (a man can cream) for one of these pod apartments.
Here's a video of them, which I think makes them look even more attractive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ7Bu_SDJgM
I may go to interior design hell for this, but I want to point out that all of those bedrooms could have windows. They would just be windows looking out into the living area. That would provide another egress from the room and allow natural light in the day. And if you don't want people looking into your bedroom, frost the glass or put-up privacy curtains, like we do with every other window in existence.
Another solution to this problem might be to create atriums in the middle of these office buildings.
Windowless bedrooms are really depressing and unhealthy and should not become normalized just to save real estate interests.
Building codes were invented to prevent the unmitigated greed of landlords from packing people into otherwise unusable space just because they could.
A $1800 2BR in Manhattan but the bedroom doesn’t have windows? I take that in a *heartbeat*. What are the powers that be waiting for, let the apartment conversion machine go brrrrr!
I lived in a very similar loft type apartment in Williamsburg. The key is to install a window in the bedroom walls facing the living room so that you get light from the exterior window through into the bedroom. Problem solved.
I'm not sure why, but I think transoms are illegal due to new fire codes. You often see this design you're talking about in pre-war apartments to allow light to get into the hallway from the bedrooms. But at some point it stopped being allowed. Someone will have to check me on this.
This apartment which was remodeled in DC about 5 years ago has exactly that design (transom windows between bedroom and living room) so I think they are legal with current (updated?) building regulations. https://lexandleowaterfront.com/floor-plans/
Maybe just leave them as lofts and let people figure out their own bedroom configurations?
The primary point is so basic. Allow windowless bedrooms! Just allow them. The worst case is a few thousand get built and they're unpopular. ie, rent ends up 15% less than hoped. Then developers either eventually pay less for future conversion buildings or no more get done.
I usually agree with you on development and real estate, but bedrooms need windows for quality of life. Not getting enough light is extremely depressing and you'd be surprised how few people actually notice it. If you're talking about a room share — if the roommates weren't getting along and one spent time in their room, you're talking about an extremely depressing place in terms of air quality and light. One roommate might have to sit in a windowless area whenever he was home until he could find a new place. For a family, they're going to want a room that's not the living room sometimes where a kid can play. And it's really really bad to have that other room have zero light. If a kid wants to work quietly in their room, sunshine is very important!
I almost think it would be better to covert huge office buildings to be co-living situations. As a trial option, it would be interested to see how it sold. There's no reason 20-40 single people can't live on a floor. These types of co-ops are extremely successful in universities and it would be great to introduce them to cities. It would be a more communal SRO. Each bedroom could have a window and its own sink, maybe even its own bathroom, like an SRO. And then a huge common space with a commercial kitchen and living and dining rooms. Make it super open like an office, so light can come in from one or two sides, then have the bedrooms along the other two sides. It's basically Fijan's floorpan, but take over the entire office floor. Another idea for this kind of floor-through layout would be senior housing. All female housing. Group family housing (2-4 families per floor sharing one huge industrial kitchen).
It's also worth noting that one of the huge issues with conversions is the cost. This real estate is often so valuable so the end result needs to be real upside money-wise, which means the rents or sales will be high. And are wealthy people really going to want to pay top dollar for an apartment with windowless bedrooms?
Living in a windowless bedroom (converted school I think) I didn't realize this was controversial until I saw Fijan posting about it. Less light, less noise, I've enjoyed it. And these buildings existing doesn't mean anyone is *forced* to live in a windowless bedroom, giving people choices is good imho
Just as a point of information, in downtown Chicago, Columbus, Milwaukee, even Chelsea I see tons of converted warehouse 1BR listings where the bedroom doesn’t have a window. Often the wall around the bedroom doesn’t fully reach the ceiling or there is glass at the top.
Mentioning Denver, I feel like it's worth noting that we have 1600 Glenarm Place on the 16th Street Mall (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1600_Glenarm_Place) as an example of a converted office tower. From the Wikipedia entry:
a 384 ft (117m) tall skyscraper in Denver, Colorado. Originally constructed in 1967 as the Security Life Building - it has since been converted into a multi-tenant luxury apartment complex. . . . In 2006, The Security Life Building underwent a major conversion from office to residential use. . . . The building houses 333 units, with a large scale amenity overhaul having been completed in 2011, to include a fitness center, movie theater, large outdoor terrace, demonstration kitchen, conference room and game room.
I have no clue what the floorplan looks like though.
If I read the 116 comments that came before to verify that this is not redundant, I will never get it written.....
There are three reasons why windows are in the codes: Light, Ventilation, and Egress.
Natural light is nice, but we can replace it with color corrected lighting. Lots of work environments do not have much natural light. Nor do northern cities in the winter. This is not really a big deal.
Ventilation can be replaced with mechanical ventilation. In residential settings, air is usually forced out with fans and naturally slips in through cracks. If you convert an office building to residential, you may want to design a way to bring some air in.
Egress is a tradeoff. Every modern bedroom has two methods of escape from fire: the door and a window. Each floor of every modern building has two methods of escape for the other rooms: typically front and back doors.
The example layout does not provide egress and would be expected to result in more deaths by fire, including deaths of firemen. That may be a tradeoff that society will accept. Providing egress from converted office space will be very expensive. But this is the problem that needs to be minimized if it can not be completely solved.
I think egress is a bit off, you generally don't want to egress through the window of a highrise even if you could, and most converted buildings will have sprinklers so I think they are comparable if not better safety wise.
Yup. I'm just not sure people realize exactly how "No windows, just color corrected lighting," is a turn off to many, many people. It's not just about the light (although nothing looks/feels like the sun)...but looking outside at the world. And mechanical ventilation feels nothing like a fresh breeze.
Not sure why you can't make apartments one entire floor and thereby allow windows. Yes these would be big units, but that would make them all the more marketable in a walkable neighborhood. And seems a better alternative then just leaving office space empty.
Also, one thing not discussed here is that a lot of these offices should probably have hotel rooms or other "short term" accommodations. Much easier to stay in a windowless room if it's only for a day or so. As you say Matt, there will still be need for some office space. But I think there are probably a decent number of people who instead of coming to the office once or twice a week, maybe are coming in once or twice a quarter for some big meeting or company event etc. The space gets to be used, companies have reason to still have an office location that at least some employees only come in occasionally. The office landlord can probably offer a big discount on renting those rooms (certainly one that will make it appealing compared to putting up an employee in a downtown hotel). Seems especially appealing in NYC where there is now (an insane) ban on building new hotels.
We're talking about 35,000 square feet here. That's be a huge apartment. I do think you could split the floors in half. Put bedrooms along the sides with windows and make like 50 bedrooms with their own bathrooms. Then make a big huge common space with an industrial kitchen for all the people to share. It'd be like co-living, it's done successfully all over the world and at many American college towns with upwards of 100 people. If people will go for windowless bedrooms, I think they'd go for this.