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Frantz's avatar

I'm definitely bringing this up on a future date.

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C-man's avatar

EDIT: Okay, fine, I may have "over-indexed" (to use a term I learned here) on a few loudmouths who are like "you're not the boss of me, I'll speed whenever I damn well please and also I hate immigrants." I am now thoroughly convinced that SB is the rule-abidingest place on the internet for everything from license plates up to "don't invade other countries for no reason."

I think my overall point still stands, though, which is that the majority of people just have a visceral reaction against the idea of an alien gaining unauthorized access to their homeland and that they believe that the reason for this is self-evident and doesn't really need explanation. Which is fine! This is not a value judgement - I just think it's interesting.

ALSO AN EDIT: So I am a big proponent of people being open about the affective and emotional components of their value systems and beliefs and so on, so here's what motivated the question: https://www.thebulwark.com/p/tories-conservatives-dangerous-drift-katie-lam-immigrants-fascism.

The gist is that a Tory MP floated the proposal of retroactively revoking Indefinite Leave to Remain (ILR; the UK term for permanent residency). I will admit I am a little fuzzy on the details - the Bulwark article makes it seem like she wanted to just basically take it away from everyone who holds it. Then Kemi Badenoch got involved and issued a "clarification," which is more like, no no, just from people who receive benefits, who commit a crime (NB: not clear if this includes misdemeanors) or whose income falls below £38,700 for six months or longer (i.e. more than what I made when I arrived as the equivalent of a tenure-track college professor).

I have lived in the UK for four years, and although I'm temporarily away this year in France, the plan was to return, probably indefinitely. Needless to say, hearing about the proposal - even though it's far from being policy - made me very, very, very angry and very, very very scared. This is the Tories we're talking about - if Reform wins the next election, which seems likely, I see no reason to believe they won't just leapfrog past that and do something even more drastic (I am pretty scared the current rhetoric around "high value" immigrants, which I already find gross, will just collapse into "let's do an Idi Amin and be done with it"). Labour is just basically a xenophobic party now. The only party holding the line are the LibDems, and well, yeah. My feeling is that I need to flee ASAP.

SB is a place where I largely agree with people on most things, but admittedly simply do not identify on any level with the median feeling on immigration. A couple of responses below make the analogy of "family / guest," and while I understand that this is meaningful to most people, for me it doesn't register. So in an effort to understand a phenomenon that is manifesting in a form that is very frightening to me where I live, I treated the commentariat as an anthropological study population with the deck stacked towards a loaded framing of the issue. Hopefully you'll excuse that.

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I'm going to hijack this alternative history thread (which, no disrespect, love me some good alternative history), to pose what I swear is a sincere question and not a gotcha:

I was just re-reading the latest SB article on immigration (as part of the ongoing series) and it, like many SB articles on immigration, emphasizes the need to have a rules-based order for immigration management and enforcement. No argument here.

But what I always find fascinating is how in the SB comments, immigration is often *uniquely* cast as one of the few areas where it is extremely important to have and maintain rules; people will scoff at MY's focus on expired plates or loudly extoll their god-given right to drive 100 mph regardless of who it puts at risk*, but immigration activates a different nerve where *here*, there can be no exceptions (note that I'm not accusing individuals of hypocrisy; I'm not necessarily saying it's the same people expressing these opinions, just noting the general mood).

Why is this? Why does the notion of rules and enforcing rules uniquely activate a deeply felt nerve when it comes to enforcing immigration? I would say something about people's deep-seated belief in territorial integrity, but I don't think so - there was a lot of shrugging at summarily executing people who happen to be in boats off the coast of Venezuela, which is as clear violation of territorial integrity as they come.

Again, not an accusation of hypocrisy or bad faith - I'm just trying to understand why immigration excites - in some cases uniquely - a defense of "rules" where in other domains it's more like, eh, if it's convenient.

* But that shit is sociopathic, what the hell.

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