I think that - as some other commenters have noted - a lot of people living in expensive coastal metros and who aren’t in the top 20-25% of earners should consider moving to one of the 50 or so midsize metros, for an increased QOL that mostly comes from less expensive housing. And not just (or primarily) remote workers. The number of workers who can work full time remote from anywhere is fairly small anyway.
People in the top 20-25% of earners (which I suspect includes a lot of SB commenters) are probably better off (or at least fine) in their expensive metro.
The numbers are pretty stark - the median HHI for LA is $85,000. The median home price is $1 million. The median HHI for the Indianapolis metro (but these numbers will be broadly true for a large number of midsize metros) is $78,000. The median home value in the metro area is $260,000. So, again, if you are in film editing making $400k, stay in LA; it’s perfect for you. If you are in some other field making $90k, you would probably be better off ditching your roommates, taking a slight pay cut, and buying a house.
You’ll just need to get over the shame of not being able to say that you’re from LA. Or DC, or NYC, or wherever.
This is sort of a tangent, but it’s interesting that differences between living in a large city and a smaller city have never been smaller.
When I was a kid in the 70’s, growing up in a small town, if you wanted to watch a film, you were at the mercy of what the theaters showed or what was on TV. (It was a college town, so the university theater would sometimes play a classic movie). But big cities had repertory cinemas, where you had many more opportunities to see all kinds of films. You just didn’t have this in smaller towns.
Until the 80’s and VCRs, where suddenly you could watch almost anything you wanted, whenever you wanted. Yes, you weren’t seeing it on TV - but you had much more variety than you would have had in NY ten years before. Without having to wait for the Bogart retrospective.
Until the early 2000’s and Amazon, there was still a large difference in terms of shopping. In the 70’s, my town of ~50,000 just had a “book and card” store. It was a revelation when mall bookstores like Waldenbooks and B.Dalton opened in the 80’s. But if you wanted a *real* bookstore, you needed to drive for a couple of hours to go to a big city bookstore.
The same was true with other shopping; we routinely traveled to the big city to buy electronics, or music, and we took a big Christmas shopping trip every year to get things that were not locally available.
With Amazon, and online shopping in general, this difference has almost completely disappeared. (With a few exceptions - high end fashion, original art, etc.).
Very large cities still have some advantages - mostly things that can’t be provided online or shipped. More and better restaurants being the main thing, especially at the higher end. The same is true of specialty grocery stores. There will be more concerts in larger cities, and probably more live theater as well.
I’ve never been to Tulsa specifically, but I suspect that you are giving up a lot less by living there today than would have been the case 20 years ago.
No, but only because (1) my company and most here have reneged on RTO expectations, not because of anything about Tulsa; (2) we want to start a family and not-blue states are losing the resources one wants in that situation, to say nothing of emergencies.
Absolutely not. They could pay me $200k and I still wouldn't come.
I actually care about democracy, so I won't move to a state that systematically disenfranchises a large portion of its population, forces bibles into classrooms, and is cutting taxes to the bone (which will inevitably lead to cuts in services).
Gerrymandering is one issue. In 2021, they redrew districts in a way that moved Democratic-leaning Hispanic voters from Oklahoma City into Republican-dominated districts (which also eliminated representation for minorities).
They also have strict voter ID laws (despite virtually zero proof of voter fraud). They also routinely purge voter rolls. The usual Republican playbook.
Long time reading, first time poster. I was in the leadership of Tulsa’s local young professional group when Tulsa Remote launched. At the time, we had significant evidence that IF people relocated here, most liked it and stayed. But getting people to even try it out was very hard. When Corporate HQs moved here, it was hard to get executives to follow. Tulsa Remote was born, in part, from those findings. Many other midsized cities have tried similar programs without the incredible success of Tulsa. Large credit goes to the private foundation that funds Tulsa Remote and created a community of “remoters.” Also, the selection process screened for people who would get involved in community building, not just stay in their (comparatively large and cheap) house for a year. Overall, it was a well researched, well executed project. As a Tulsan for life, thank you for noticing and bringing attention to the program!
Move to Memphis, not Tulsa. The crime is really only bad in certain neighborhoods that you’d probably never go to. Great food, great culture, dirt cheap housing
How important do you think good weather is to being happy in a city? I'm fine with anything not too extreme but it seems like it's a factor for a lot of people.
I grew up in Tulsa in the 60’s & 70’s. I moved to Palo Alto in 1985 & SF in my 2003. I would be a very different person, intellectually & financially, if I had remained a Junior League, Southern Baptist in a town deeply connected to the fossil fuel industry. I have zero regrets about escaping. But that was 40 years ago. Has it changed? Of course & many of the changes are making Tulsa more culturally & economically diverse. But Oklahoma is a deeply red state where balanced political dialogue is nonexistent. Check out US Senator Mullen & the State Superintendent of Schools to see if they represent your vision for functional democracy. On the other hand there is room to work for change. I have a friend who helped launch Tulsa Remote, another has organized recent Democratic political rallies and was instrumental in bringing Bernie to town. Others are active in literary, art, music and philanthropic organizations that are committed to enriching intellectual opportunities in Tulsa.
If you aren’t an evangelical people will try to convert you. When, in 2018, I sold my mom’s house to a black family from Africa two neighbors screamed at me. The weather is miserable. I love Gilcrease & Philbrook. Restaurants are still average & the best grocery store is WF. I will never move back or encourage my kids to do so but I hope many wonderful people thoughtful, ambitious, open minded people will and ensure the city remains on an upward trajectory.
I live in NY. Is the political dialogue actually more unbalanced than here? I usually figure that cities are not like the state as a whole where they are located, but it sounds like that may not be the case for Tulsa?
Were the Black folks not seen as possible converts?
ETA, I try really hard to not be confrontational, but that abject a level of bad behavior would have driven me to both verbal and then written response of just how much of an asshole racist they were. The several rounds of confession and penance would have been worth it.
My risk calculus maybe off here...but doesn't the whole Tornado alley thing dissuade anyone not already born in the area from moving to Oklahoma unless they inherited hectares of farm land or oil property form a relative? Tornadoes are scary and it would be stressful to have to think about them every year it seems to me.
Grew up in St. Louis, where tornadoes were a fact of life. Tornadoes are pretty narrow-bore compared to hurricanes, earthquakes, or wildfires. Unless it ends up on top of you, it’s usually just a really bad thunderstorm. It’s also pretty cool to sit at the window watch them come through: the sky turns all sorts of weird colors, the wind blows in every direction, and the rain comes down unlike any rainstorm you could possibly imagine. I feel the same way you do about volcanic eruptions: Washington state is maybe my favorite place on Earth, but the lurking thought of Rainier erupting always sits in the back of my head. My mother grew up in Washington during the eruption of Mt. St. Helens and thinks I’m dead wrong about tornadoes and volcanoes, so it’s probably just familiarity.
Also, the tornado count and tornado intensity seem to be rising across the board according to Fig 3 but it's not clear how much of it is a reporting bias?
Food has gotten so much better everywhere. Smaller cities I've spent extended time in for work - Tulsa, Cincinnati, Grand Rapids, Pittsburgh, Sacramento, Fort Worth - are just so damn livable. Yes, you're often subject to bad statewide politics. You're not gonna find great regional Chinese food. But you will find a few good authentic Chinese places. And great coffee shops. For some reason these smaller cities sometimes have the best library systems. You can get across town in < 30 minutes. There's usually something resembling walkable neighborhoods because they were once bigger and were built before industrial decline. And, the goddamn housing prices. The price for a median shitbox in SoCal will buy a 5,000 square foot 1920s home that's beautifully preserved and probably on some home tour. (I can't talk my wife into leaving SoCal.)
I also think the rise of modern media, streaming and the internet plays a role. I know a lot of us view these things as a mixed blessing (the psychological effects of social media, the inability to shut off, etc), but most of the "culture" the average person consumes is TV, movies and music. You can get that everywhere. Same goes for books: it's not that big a deal these days if your small city doesn't have a NY Public library or Powell's Books when you're a few clicks away from getting virtually every book ever written delivered to your device. Ditto sports: I like attending the odd game live, sure, but it's not as comfortable as my living room. My point, of course, is that the *cultural and entertainment* advantage of big cities, while not non-existent, is plainly smaller than it used to be.
I’ve wanted a bespoke suit for a few years, so I’d probably get that and then a few other items of clothing to go with it (really nice shirts, a couple of ties, a couple pairs of shoes). I’ve always loved tailoring and I’m of the age where I start needing to go to a lot of weddings, so it’s the perfect mix of extravagant and actually useful for me.
After finding out how much tattoos cost, I am shocked by the ink I see on some folks. Like 10k isn’t that much, and I swear I see people with double that visible..
Travel to Poland with my family to visit my grandma. I haven’t been back since before my son was born. I would show him where Mommy grew up! And buy some funky Polish folk art/Christmas tree decorations, and eat lots of pierogi.
Lol yes this is true, doing anything to a house is ridiculously expensive. That said in my case, I am just planning for new counters and appliances, but keeping the old cabinets. $10k may not cover it all, but it would be a big chunk.
As a classical music enjoyer, it’s always fun explaining to my friends who are less knowledgeable about the subject that Cleveland has one of the best orchestras on Earth.
I think that - as some other commenters have noted - a lot of people living in expensive coastal metros and who aren’t in the top 20-25% of earners should consider moving to one of the 50 or so midsize metros, for an increased QOL that mostly comes from less expensive housing. And not just (or primarily) remote workers. The number of workers who can work full time remote from anywhere is fairly small anyway.
People in the top 20-25% of earners (which I suspect includes a lot of SB commenters) are probably better off (or at least fine) in their expensive metro.
The numbers are pretty stark - the median HHI for LA is $85,000. The median home price is $1 million. The median HHI for the Indianapolis metro (but these numbers will be broadly true for a large number of midsize metros) is $78,000. The median home value in the metro area is $260,000. So, again, if you are in film editing making $400k, stay in LA; it’s perfect for you. If you are in some other field making $90k, you would probably be better off ditching your roommates, taking a slight pay cut, and buying a house.
You’ll just need to get over the shame of not being able to say that you’re from LA. Or DC, or NYC, or wherever.
This is sort of a tangent, but it’s interesting that differences between living in a large city and a smaller city have never been smaller.
When I was a kid in the 70’s, growing up in a small town, if you wanted to watch a film, you were at the mercy of what the theaters showed or what was on TV. (It was a college town, so the university theater would sometimes play a classic movie). But big cities had repertory cinemas, where you had many more opportunities to see all kinds of films. You just didn’t have this in smaller towns.
Until the 80’s and VCRs, where suddenly you could watch almost anything you wanted, whenever you wanted. Yes, you weren’t seeing it on TV - but you had much more variety than you would have had in NY ten years before. Without having to wait for the Bogart retrospective.
Until the early 2000’s and Amazon, there was still a large difference in terms of shopping. In the 70’s, my town of ~50,000 just had a “book and card” store. It was a revelation when mall bookstores like Waldenbooks and B.Dalton opened in the 80’s. But if you wanted a *real* bookstore, you needed to drive for a couple of hours to go to a big city bookstore.
The same was true with other shopping; we routinely traveled to the big city to buy electronics, or music, and we took a big Christmas shopping trip every year to get things that were not locally available.
With Amazon, and online shopping in general, this difference has almost completely disappeared. (With a few exceptions - high end fashion, original art, etc.).
Very large cities still have some advantages - mostly things that can’t be provided online or shipped. More and better restaurants being the main thing, especially at the higher end. The same is true of specialty grocery stores. There will be more concerts in larger cities, and probably more live theater as well.
I’ve never been to Tulsa specifically, but I suspect that you are giving up a lot less by living there today than would have been the case 20 years ago.
Matt can you explain why you don’t think the current Dem8leadership is a problem?
No, but only because (1) my company and most here have reneged on RTO expectations, not because of anything about Tulsa; (2) we want to start a family and not-blue states are losing the resources one wants in that situation, to say nothing of emergencies.
Absolutely not. They could pay me $200k and I still wouldn't come.
I actually care about democracy, so I won't move to a state that systematically disenfranchises a large portion of its population, forces bibles into classrooms, and is cutting taxes to the bone (which will inevitably lead to cuts in services).
What do you mean by systematic disenfranchisement? Gerrymandering?
Gerrymandering is one issue. In 2021, they redrew districts in a way that moved Democratic-leaning Hispanic voters from Oklahoma City into Republican-dominated districts (which also eliminated representation for minorities).
They also have strict voter ID laws (despite virtually zero proof of voter fraud). They also routinely purge voter rolls. The usual Republican playbook.
Long time reading, first time poster. I was in the leadership of Tulsa’s local young professional group when Tulsa Remote launched. At the time, we had significant evidence that IF people relocated here, most liked it and stayed. But getting people to even try it out was very hard. When Corporate HQs moved here, it was hard to get executives to follow. Tulsa Remote was born, in part, from those findings. Many other midsized cities have tried similar programs without the incredible success of Tulsa. Large credit goes to the private foundation that funds Tulsa Remote and created a community of “remoters.” Also, the selection process screened for people who would get involved in community building, not just stay in their (comparatively large and cheap) house for a year. Overall, it was a well researched, well executed project. As a Tulsan for life, thank you for noticing and bringing attention to the program!
Here is a nice article from one of the NY to Tulsa remoters: https://www.businessinsider.com/paid-to-move-oklahoma-tulsa-worth-it-remote-worker-2025-8
Move to Memphis, not Tulsa. The crime is really only bad in certain neighborhoods that you’d probably never go to. Great food, great culture, dirt cheap housing
Well, if you’re too young to marry.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BCjbMdY8dZE&pp=ygUfdGFrZSBtZSBiYWNrIHRvIHR1bHNhIGJvYiB3aWxscw%3D%3D
How important do you think good weather is to being happy in a city? I'm fine with anything not too extreme but it seems like it's a factor for a lot of people.
Too much rain = depressing
I say that from experience, having lived in Vancouver.
Is this an older sister? This sounds like older sibling shenanigans, like sure the wind chill factor is fine.
Several cities have this. I moved to northwest Arkansas under one of them.
I grew up in Tulsa in the 60’s & 70’s. I moved to Palo Alto in 1985 & SF in my 2003. I would be a very different person, intellectually & financially, if I had remained a Junior League, Southern Baptist in a town deeply connected to the fossil fuel industry. I have zero regrets about escaping. But that was 40 years ago. Has it changed? Of course & many of the changes are making Tulsa more culturally & economically diverse. But Oklahoma is a deeply red state where balanced political dialogue is nonexistent. Check out US Senator Mullen & the State Superintendent of Schools to see if they represent your vision for functional democracy. On the other hand there is room to work for change. I have a friend who helped launch Tulsa Remote, another has organized recent Democratic political rallies and was instrumental in bringing Bernie to town. Others are active in literary, art, music and philanthropic organizations that are committed to enriching intellectual opportunities in Tulsa.
If you aren’t an evangelical people will try to convert you. When, in 2018, I sold my mom’s house to a black family from Africa two neighbors screamed at me. The weather is miserable. I love Gilcrease & Philbrook. Restaurants are still average & the best grocery store is WF. I will never move back or encourage my kids to do so but I hope many wonderful people thoughtful, ambitious, open minded people will and ensure the city remains on an upward trajectory.
I live in NY. Is the political dialogue actually more unbalanced than here? I usually figure that cities are not like the state as a whole where they are located, but it sounds like that may not be the case for Tulsa?
Were the Black folks not seen as possible converts?
ETA, I try really hard to not be confrontational, but that abject a level of bad behavior would have driven me to both verbal and then written response of just how much of an asshole racist they were. The several rounds of confession and penance would have been worth it.
Actually the new owners were devout evangelicals.
In Oklahoma you never know if someone has a gun.
My risk calculus maybe off here...but doesn't the whole Tornado alley thing dissuade anyone not already born in the area from moving to Oklahoma unless they inherited hectares of farm land or oil property form a relative? Tornadoes are scary and it would be stressful to have to think about them every year it seems to me.
Grew up in St. Louis, where tornadoes were a fact of life. Tornadoes are pretty narrow-bore compared to hurricanes, earthquakes, or wildfires. Unless it ends up on top of you, it’s usually just a really bad thunderstorm. It’s also pretty cool to sit at the window watch them come through: the sky turns all sorts of weird colors, the wind blows in every direction, and the rain comes down unlike any rainstorm you could possibly imagine. I feel the same way you do about volcanic eruptions: Washington state is maybe my favorite place on Earth, but the lurking thought of Rainier erupting always sits in the back of my head. My mother grew up in Washington during the eruption of Mt. St. Helens and thinks I’m dead wrong about tornadoes and volcanoes, so it’s probably just familiarity.
Living in Ohio we sort of lived in tornado alley, but if you have a basement it pretty well mitigates the risk.
I think it's fair to say from this report that Ohio is presently outside Tornado Alley, but Tornado Alley is moving in its direction: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41612-018-0048-2
Also, the tornado count and tornado intensity seem to be rising across the board according to Fig 3 but it's not clear how much of it is a reporting bias?
Food has gotten so much better everywhere. Smaller cities I've spent extended time in for work - Tulsa, Cincinnati, Grand Rapids, Pittsburgh, Sacramento, Fort Worth - are just so damn livable. Yes, you're often subject to bad statewide politics. You're not gonna find great regional Chinese food. But you will find a few good authentic Chinese places. And great coffee shops. For some reason these smaller cities sometimes have the best library systems. You can get across town in < 30 minutes. There's usually something resembling walkable neighborhoods because they were once bigger and were built before industrial decline. And, the goddamn housing prices. The price for a median shitbox in SoCal will buy a 5,000 square foot 1920s home that's beautifully preserved and probably on some home tour. (I can't talk my wife into leaving SoCal.)
I also think the rise of modern media, streaming and the internet plays a role. I know a lot of us view these things as a mixed blessing (the psychological effects of social media, the inability to shut off, etc), but most of the "culture" the average person consumes is TV, movies and music. You can get that everywhere. Same goes for books: it's not that big a deal these days if your small city doesn't have a NY Public library or Powell's Books when you're a few clicks away from getting virtually every book ever written delivered to your device. Ditto sports: I like attending the odd game live, sure, but it's not as comfortable as my living room. My point, of course, is that the *cultural and entertainment* advantage of big cities, while not non-existent, is plainly smaller than it used to be.
I’m curious what SB readers would splurge on if given a free $10k. No, paying down debt and retirement savings don’t count for this question.
My wishlist is something like:
* Motorcycle or snowmobile
* Remodel kitchen
* Hot tub
E-bikes, since we live at the top of a hill.
Put it towards fixing the deck
I’ve wanted a bespoke suit for a few years, so I’d probably get that and then a few other items of clothing to go with it (really nice shirts, a couple of ties, a couple pairs of shoes). I’ve always loved tailoring and I’m of the age where I start needing to go to a lot of weddings, so it’s the perfect mix of extravagant and actually useful for me.
55.24 shares of NVDA
That is uncompensated risk!
More ink.
After finding out how much tattoos cost, I am shocked by the ink I see on some folks. Like 10k isn’t that much, and I swear I see people with double that visible..
Probably a bathroom remodel. Definitely not something with ongoing costs
Travel to Poland with my family to visit my grandma. I haven’t been back since before my son was born. I would show him where Mommy grew up! And buy some funky Polish folk art/Christmas tree decorations, and eat lots of pierogi.
I priced kitchen cabinets recently, you can drop that from your list, 10k just won’t cut it.
European vacation was my first thought, but hot tub might be the better choice.
Lol yes this is true, doing anything to a house is ridiculously expensive. That said in my case, I am just planning for new counters and appliances, but keeping the old cabinets. $10k may not cover it all, but it would be a big chunk.
I think Cleveland should consider a similar program. We probably don't have the money to do it, but we have way more cultural amenities than Tulsa.
As a classical music enjoyer, it’s always fun explaining to my friends who are less knowledgeable about the subject that Cleveland has one of the best orchestras on Earth.
Halina — No shade to Ben, but I really appreciate the in-depth thread topics.
And no shade to you, but I hope you have the energy to keep it up! Not everyone can be as prolific as Matt!