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JCW's avatar

I study energy and nuclear stuff as a historian--power generation in my MA work, nuclear applications in medicine for my PhD--and I see a lot to like in this post. I also currently do public health work, so this is right in my wheelhouse. And I more or less agree with the basic premise.

BUT...

I think the nuclear debate, like all energy debates, gets badly derailed by the unwillingness of participants to engage with the full complexity of the cost structure. When you say "nuclear is safe," or "nuclear is clean," or "nuclear is cost effective," or whatever, the meaning of those claims is subject to manipulation almost beyond recognition.

Here's a simple example: How are you amortizing the cost of waste storage? How long will the waste storage and protection costs need to be borne? Waste storage was supposed to be a cost borne by taxpayers in the US (in order to stimulate the industry), but that doesn't make it go away, any more than the cost of carbon dioxide emissions goes away just because a coal plant operator isn't paying that cost. And if you cost out the active maintenance of storing anything for a thousand years, that cost is going to be pretty high.

Likewise, it is totally fair to say that nuclear power has a good safety record relative to coal! But if you do a comprehensive analysis of safety issues, the balance between nuclear and, say, geothermal enabled with deep horizontal drilling, nuclear starts looking pretty bad. That's because you have to add in what might be described as a "catastrophic risk premium," i.e. the very low chance of a highly catastrophic event. And despite the relatively low number of nuclear power reactors in the world (relative to fossil fuel plants), they suffer mildly catastrophic breakdowns at the rate of roughly one per twenty or so years. There has only been one Chernobyl level event so far, but in subsequent analysis of the Fukushima and Three-Mile Island events, it turned out that they were more dangerous than initially recognized. TMI, in particular, was much closer to having an explosion and / or suffering a pressure vessel breach by meltdown, with an accompanying massive radioactive material release, than realized. No one knew how bad the meltdown and loss of core geometry was until they finally opened it up in the cleanup, years after the event. The good news is that they didn't become Chernobyl-level catastrophes! But that's not how risk works. If you see almost-catastrophes on the regular, you can more or less predict that sooner or later you will get the full enchilada. And the fact that these events keep happening for, essentially, different reasons every time (human error, equipment breakdown, natural disaster) tells you that the underlying system is prone to catastrophic, chain-reactive failure.

Moreover, you can't think about the safety of nuclear without giving thought to the safety issues around waste storage--I tend to think that the danger of someone using waste to make a "dirty" radiological weapon is small, but it is not zero, and good old fashioned water or soil contamination is definitely a potential health hazard--and around proliferation. Modern reactors don't produce weapons grade material...unless you want them to. And remember that producing weapons-grade material is, at this point, a 75-year-old technology. It isn't that hard. One of the big bottlenecks for potential proliferators is access to the unenriched nuclear material; that access will get naturally easier as the industry grows, for all the basic reasons of supply chains.

Speaking of which, mining of nuclear materials is itself a highly fraught enterprise with a dubious health record, major safety and environmental concerns, and a nasty legacy. And remember those reactors that Matt mentioned on ships that sank? Good news! They haven't produced major releases! Bad news! It takes a long time for modern ships to break down--they are well constructed out of tough, resilient alloys. But "long time" and "forever" are not the same thing. "Long time" and "1000 years" are not even the same thing.

None of this means you can't do nuclear. These are all problems that have solutions, and you could level similar types of concerns at every energy technology. Producing batteries requires mining activities with many of the same concerns. Both PV cells and batteries have serious environmental costs around production and disposal. A lot of solar tech precursors are currently made with slave labor. I can tell you a great story about why space-based solar was (and maybe still is) potentially a really, really bad idea. Fossil fuels are a huge disaster all the way around.

But I am personally pretty meh on nuclear for the simple reason that I described above: it seems to be prone to catastrophic, chain-reactive failure. The simple reason for my assessment is that fission-based technologies are, at a deep, fundamental level, quasi-uncontrollable. They involve forces that are hard for humans to parse. Two examples come to mind:

1) Chernobyl blew up in part because of the design of the control rods, which could not be inserted fast enough to overcome the fact that they initially could cause a spike in fission rates by displacing neutron-moderating water. But "not fast enough" was around 1.3 ft/s--it took less than 30 seconds to scram the reactor. It's not like the rods were being screwed in or something. Stuff just happens really, really fast in a nuclear reaction (which is why you can use it to make a bomb). Humans struggle to grok that.

2) Fukushima was a problem in part because scramming the reactor (shutting down the reaction) is not enough. Fission reactions get so hot that the pile in a big reactor can melt itself down for literally days after you scram the reactor. And if the fuel melts together, it will start fissioning again (this is problem with loss of core geometry), because remember that sufficiently radioactive isotopes will do their thing with nothing more than simple proximity. There have occasionally been "natural" nuclear reactors in the wild for precisely this reason.

So with nuclear you always have the fundamental problem that enriched fuels want to do The Bad Thing on their own, and your whole fancy reactor design is about getting them close, but not too close, but fissioning, but not too fast--it's a goldilocks engineering problem, and goldilocks engineering is actually really hard, because you can screw up in either direction. And in this case, if you screw up, The Bad Thing can happen at a speed too great for humans to effectively parse and respond, given the limitations of our senses and cognition.

So, TL:DR - All energy production systems have big problems related to the complexity of what you are trying to do. But given that we are now living through that disaster with fossil fuels, I would argue that we should be much, much more risk-averse in our next step, and I tend to be unconvinced that fission-based nuclear meets that criteria because of both the accumulation of little dangers around the technology and the catastrophic tail risk that it represents.

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Rory Hester's avatar

I work in the energy field, and all I want to comment on is this.

"You can walk into a car rental place, get a make and model of a car you’ve never driven before, and get yourself up to speed very quickly on how to drive it safely."

Sure, maybe you can figure out the basics.... but all the little details of how to pop the gas cap or trunk, or attach Bluetooth you definitely can't figure those out very quickly. As someone who rents probably 30 cars a year.... It seems like I have to google features pretty regularly.

Now energy. This post is no fun because it makes sense. Hell it makes sense to people on all sides of the political guiding line, except maybe for the hardcore anti-nuke greens.

As someone who works on gas turbines for a big energy company, renewables don't scare me. They aren't going to put me out of a job in the next two decades... but Nukes... nukes would put me out of a job quickly. Well not technically, I could work on steam turbines as well (I do sometimes), but they suck to work on.

I'm not sure why, but the US has lost some of its ability to innovate in the last few decades. Ok, I am absolutely sure why... stupid regulations.

The same sort of inflexibility that prevents energy innovation is the same reason our CDC and FDA suck and we don't have rapid covid testing.

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